Back from theMediterranean
Question:
> My wife and I just completed the Celebrity Millennium cruise of the > Mediterranean. Some obsevations:
Thank you, Cathy, for putting it much more diplomatically than I would have. I found it a bit unpatriotic, political, and an inkling of bashing of american people, children and religion. If one is so dissatisfied with our country and americans in general, one is not forced to stay here. There are many more trying to get into our country legally and illegally than trying to leave. I’m proud to be an American and despite its faults, as far as I am concerned, my country is #1 and will always be to me. –Jean
Response:
>Twelve hours per port and you were able to characterize entire populations. >Good job.
Those are my impressions, your put down makes no sense since I don’t claim any extensive experience in Europe. My wife has lived in Europe and traveled there numerous times and holds the same impression. >If you skipped the entire religious side show you skipped many important >ancient ruins, the forum, the Colosseum, circus maximus to name a few.
Of course, we both know what I’m referring to above. The heavy Catholism of Vatican City is not my thing. If you want to reveal in billions of dollars in religious art treasures and other symbols of the dark ages-go for it. Personally, I prefer the Pagans, they had more fun and were the ones who started Western civilization. (Don’t bother to edify me about the Rennaissance) Exactly where do you live? In San Francisco it is not rare to find hotel >and shop >clerks that speak many different languages.
International tests consistently demonstrate the low acheivement levels of US educated students. The Chamber of Commerce complains that US high school graduates are enumerate and functionally illiterate. Is San Fransisco typical of the US? Of course not. I think our attitude of "USA number one" ignores our limitations. One final point-I’m a Vietnam vet who was spit on by numerous Americans, no European ever spit on me. Given my experience, I’m very skeptical of the "superior American character" but then you wouldn’t have had my experience.
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Hear, here Cathy different S’nd I
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))The Bush dollar is slipping away, ))no European will touch our money. Thanks for my morning chuckle If it were only true
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> Of course, we both know what I’m referring to above. The heavy Catholism of > Vatican City is not my thing. If you want to reveal in billions of dollars in > religious art treasures and other symbols of the dark ages-go for it. > Personally, I prefer the Pagans, they had more fun and were the ones who > started Western civilization. (Don’t bother to edify me about the Rennaissance)
I’m not Catholic, but found the Vatican museum and the Basilica fascinating from "artistic" and "architectural" standpoints. One can see things like the transformation of artists like Rafael from boring "color" artists into vibrant "chiaroscuro" artists, after the discovery of chiaroscuro by Caravaggio. To miss a sculpture by Michelangelo, considered one of the top 3 geniuses in the history of the world, because you don’t like Catholicism is to me a shame. Same with the Basilica, which was designed by Michelangelo. You can view many things from a historic perspective, if you don’t want to look at the religious perspective. That’s what I often do. Too bad you let your feelings about Catholicism get in the way. There are some truly beautiful things there to see and appreciate. –Tom
Response:
> I’m not Catholic, but found the Vatican museum and the Basilica > fascinating from "artistic" and "architectural" standpoints.
Same here, not Catholic but I would not skip them on a visit to Rome for the same reasons. By the way this "frog" poster is the one who trolled the group about the supposed "Bizzare incident on Galaxy" as Jim (cruiserfrog) who was the object of the incident, and responded as KathyDfrog that he witnessed the incident!!! Their "Back from the Med" post is pretty troll like too. — Charles
Response:
Thanx. End of replies to this thread. –Tom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m not Catholic, but found the Vatican museum and the Basilica > fascinating from "artistic" and "architectural" standpoints. > Same here, not Catholic but I would not skip them on a visit to Rome > for the same reasons. > By the way this "frog" poster is the one who trolled the group about > the supposed "Bizzare incident on Galaxy" as Jim (cruiserfrog) who was > the object of the incident, and responded as KathyDfrog that he > witnessed the incident!!! Their "Back from the Med" post is pretty > troll like too. > — > Charles
Response:
>8. The Europeans are far ahead of America in many respects. I found the >people stylish, slim, well mannered and most spoke multiple languages. I can >only conclude that our expensive educational system is a failure.
No argument there. > Every young >European, who spoke English, told me they had twelve years of it in school. >Can anyone imagine all our spoiled, lazy children studying a foreign language >for 12 years?
Well, really, you were in tourist areas. Believe me, there are lots of Europeans who can’t speak English. I think the reason so few Americans speak a foreign language is simply that they don’t need to, and to a lesser degree that they don’t have common opportunities for immersion in another language — about the only exception is Spanish for people living in Miami, California, and Texas border towns — and a lot of them do, in fact, speak some Spanish. I actually think, if you took 100 random people off the streets of Oslo, and 100 random people off the streets of New York, the Norwegians would do better on an English test 
>10. The only loud, rude, self important people, I encountered on the trip were >my countrymen. At the Venice airport, two obese loud mouthed New Yorkers >threatened the Italian security guard and demanded they speak English. The two >had their passports taken and were searched.
Not to excuse rude American tourists, but you are showing a bit of provencialism (reverse provencialism?) here. The most dreaded tourists in Europe, according to a recent poll, are the British, followed by the Germans. Americans are third. I really don’t think I’ve found a greater proportion of nice vs. rude people in any culture. Not that there aren’t a lot of differences, and sometimes cultural differences are perceived as rudeness. Mason Barge "If this is coffee, please bring me some tea. If this is tea, please bring me some coffee." — Abraham Lincoln
Response:
Here’s a link to the poll, by the way. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3185291.stm Americans actually came out better than I had thought. Germans were first and worst at 23%, British at 22%, and more or less a three way tie between Americans, French and Italians. Mason Barge "If this is coffee, please bring me some tea. If this is tea, please bring me some coffee." — Abraham Lincoln
Response:
>Americans actually came out better than I had thought. Germans were >first and worst at 23%, British at 22%, and more or less a three way >tie between Americans, French and Italians.
Ther eason for this is the attitude to tipping. The Euros don’t like to tip. Our waiters complained endlessly about the poor tips in Europe. Americans like to tip, I know we tip well as do many other Americans. This is definitely a point in our favor, but the rudness of the US urban boor is incredible.
Response:
> My wife and I just completed the Celebrity Millennium cruise of the > Mediterranean. Some obsevations: > 1. September is great because there are few children on the ship and the > weather is near perfect.
I found around the Med May and September are the best months for weather. > 2. The folks in all countries are friendly, although many do not like the Bush > military policies. We also do not like Bush’s militarism, so we have common > ground with most of the French, Italians, Greeks and Spaniards.
You want scintilating conversation, talk about their countries politics… Bring up the European Union, there were huge protests in Rome when we were there last summer over a scandal about the Italian leader bribing the judiciary not to indict him during his upcoming tenure as head of the EU. > 3. The Spanish are a warm engaging people but the Croatians are tops. They > actually refuse tips and bargain there prices down. Go figure!
Twelve hours per port and you were able to characterize entire populations. Good job. > 4. Dubrovnik is the great surprise, its immaculate, situated in an area of > incredible beauty and beautifully restored. Most found the port their > favorite, although I liked VillaFranche and Santorini as much. > 5. I skipped the religious side show (we aren’t Catholic) in Rome and > concentrated on the ancient ruins. My descretion was rewarded, they were > awesome.
If you skipped the entire religious side show you skipped many important ancient ruins, the forum, the Colosseum, circus maximus to name a few. Perhaps you are only skipping the Vatican? Or did you miss the how religion was interwoven into the culture of ancient Rome? > 6. Athens is great if you like cluster houseing, the best ruins are outside > the city. I can’t possibly imagine the 2004 Olympics in this place.
It depends on your definition of "best". Ephesus and Olympia are wonderful. But for sheer majesty, you really need to see the Acropolis at least once. > 7. The Bush dollar is slipping away, no European will touch our money. > 8. The Europeans are far ahead of America in many respects. I found the > people stylish, slim, well mannered and most spoke multiple languages. I can > only conclude that our expensive educational system is a failure. Every young > European, who spoke English, told me they had twelve years of it in school. > Can anyone imagine all our spoiled, lazy children studying a foreign language > for 12 years? The clerks I encounter in the USA can not make change, fraction > or speak proper English, let alone converse in a foreign tongue.
Exactly where do you live? In San Francisco it is not rare to find hotel and shop clerks that speak many different languages. There are people working in each land of Disneyland that can handle most common languages of the world, to help guests that say, speak only Japanese or Chinese. You were on a ship, visiting ports that guarenteed the local shops close to 2000 tourists any day they anchored. Visit any tourist destination anywhere, including the US, and you will find people that can speak many different languages. Now, if you were to wander off the beaten path, I guarantee you everyone doesn’t speak English, and many can make change about as well as the local high school kids at your Seven Eleven. I’ve taken a bike trip through the back roads of France (Along the Lot and Dordogne rivers.) There were many small shops where my high school French was better than their high school English. My tourist Italian (from tapes) got me through many small towns in Tuscany, near Lake Garda, and outside Sorrento when we were staying in villas. I love hitting the Super Mercatos, but you can’t expect them to speak English. > 9. European cities are safe except for the Gypsy pick pockets. > 10. The only loud, rude, self important people, I encountered on the trip were > my countrymen. At the Venice airport, two obese loud mouthed New Yorkers > threatened the Italian security guard and demanded they speak English. The two > had their passports taken and were searched.
I got to spend a few weeks in Nice on business. I was staying in a small business hotel, that also catered to German tourists. The desk clerks there always sighed big when the German tourists showed up. They much preferred the American business folks. Once in Paris my then fiance and I were at a fancy starred French restaurant, attempting to translate the menu with our book hidden under the table. Though we were speaking to the waiter in French, he came over, and in perfect English, offered us English menus. At the next table over were 10 Japanese tourists. When the same waiter wandered over to them the head Japanese tourist turns to the waiter and says very loudly, in English "We are obviously Japanese, therefore we don’t speak French!" The waiter chose not to understand his English, and served them the entire dinner only responding to finger pointing. There are nice tourists, and bores, from every country, ours included. > 11. Italian security is more through and annoying than American. I showed my > passport, to security, 6 times in the Venice airport before being allowed to > board.
This is much like assuming all American Airport have the same security. The security at the airport in Rome earlier this summer was less thourough than the security in SF. Go figure. > The Med is beautiful in the Fall and the European cities are filled with nice > folks and wondeful things to see, I recommend Celebrity cruises, and the > Millennium 12 day itinerary. It was my first visit to Europe and I found the > experience broadening, encouraging and pointed out that, in many ways, the USA > is not always number one.
For this reason alone, I’ve been taking my children to Europe the last few summers. I can’t believe anyone would ever believe the USA is always number one. >I’d stay in Barcelona for a few days prior, its > lively, arty and fun.
Barcelona is indeed a lovely city. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
Response:
Interesting observations. I also went on a European cruise on Celebrity a few years ago. > My wife and I just completed the Celebrity Millennium cruise of the > Mediterranean. Some obsevations: > 1. September is great because there are few children on the ship and the > weather is near perfect.
I went late August. Also encountered few children and incredible weather. > 2. The folks in all countries are friendly, although many do not like the Bush > military policies. We also do not like Bush’s militarism, so we have common > ground with most of the French, Italians, Greeks and Spaniards.
I’m strongly in agreement with you and have a lot of concern about our militarism as well. Bush, as far as I’m concerned, knows nothing of the real world, and I have little to no respect for him (those that disagree with me and don’t like what I’m saying here, tough. That’s what freedom brings). However… > 3. The Spanish are a warm engaging people but the Croatians are tops. They > actually refuse tips and bargain there prices down. Go figure!
Don’t know about the Spaniards. Do you speak Spanish? I know I didn’t care for many young Italian men’s attitudes about women and disliked the catcalling and other macho behavior I witnessed. I’ve met Croatians living here (born and raised in Croatia, here for a few years). Also have found macho, chavanistic behavior from the younger men and some of the younger women put down American young women and certain ethnicities, so they have their issues as well. > 4. Dubrovnik is the great surprise, its immaculate, situated in an area of > incredible beauty and beautifully restored. Most found the port their > favorite, although I liked VillaFranche and Santorini as much.
Sounds interesting. I enjoyed VilleFranche as well. > 5. I skipped the religious side show (we aren’t Catholic) in Rome and > concentrated on the ancient ruins. My descretion was rewarded, they were > awesome. > 6. Athens is great if you like cluster houseing, the best ruins are outside > the city. I can’t possibly imagine the 2004 Olympics in this place. > 7. The Bush dollar is slipping away, no European will touch our money.
Euro is worth more. For now. Will dollar make comeback? I think so. > 8. The Europeans are far ahead of America in many respects. I found the > people stylish, slim, well mannered and most spoke multiple languages. I can > only conclude that our expensive educational system is a failure. Every young > European, who spoke English, told me they had twelve years of it in school. > Can anyone imagine all our spoiled, lazy children studying a foreign language > for 12 years? The clerks I encounter in the USA can not make change, fraction > or speak proper English, let alone converse in a foreign tongue.
I think it is a shame that Americans tend only to speak English, unless they are from first generation parents that spoke it to them as youngsters or they’ve lived abroad. Speaking one language is so limited. However, I can’t see how you can conclude anything without spending a least months in Europe and seeing the pros and cons of each European country, and various regions within that country. I wouldn’t characterize American children as lazy either, and I think all Western people are spoiled to some degree as we are relatively wealthy compared to the rest of people in the world. Getting back to languages, I think French and Spanish, both, should be spoken in our schools and society. This English only nonsense is just that. Nonsense. There’s nothing wrong with signs in 3 languages and we would be able to speak to most of our neighbors to the south and in French areas in the North and a few French-speaking areas to our south. > 9. European cities are safe except for the Gypsy pick pockets.
Not necessarily. My mother-in-law lives in Belgium and was mugged 3 times in a 2 year period living there. My sister-in-law lives in the same area and was almost abducted into a car. There’s less crime, than the U.S., but there’s crime there. I have plenty friends in Europe, and you have to watch out there. When we went to Lisbon my mother-in-law was almost pickpockted (probably by gypsies). > 10. The only loud, rude, self important people, I encountered on the trip were > my countrymen. At the Venice airport, two obese loud mouthed New Yorkers > threatened the Italian security guard and demanded they speak English. The two > had their passports taken and were searched.
Some New Yorkers are loudmouthed and self important (goes with the ultra competitive urban environment of a city of the status of New York), some aren’t. And there are Americans that exist that think everywhere they go people should speak English. However, there are loudmouths all over the world, obnoxious people all over the world. The U.S. has no monopoly on them. Yes, on your trip you may have encountered American loudmouths, but stay around anywhere and you are bound to have to deal with them sooner or later. > 11. Italian security is more through and annoying than American. I showed my > passport, to security, 6 times in the Venice airport before being allowed to > board. > The Med is beautiful in the Fall and the European cities are filled with nice > folks and wondeful things to see, I recommend Celebrity cruises, and the > Millennium 12 day itinerary. It was my first visit to Europe and I found the > experience broadening, encouraging and pointed out that, in many ways, the USA > is not always number one. I’d stay in Barcelona for a few days prior, its > lively, arty and fun.
My main problem with the United States is this we are number one crap. I’m tired of it. I’m tired of hearing we are so free, and so much the greatest country in the world. Frankly, I’m very glad to live in a country where I’m at least not limited to going out and searching for various types of information, I’m glad to live in a technologically advanced country, in a broad and diverse country. However, we aren’t the only country where one can speak out against their government, we aren’t the only country where people can get at any information we want and to be honest I think we are limited in information that we can get at, we aren’t evenhanded in terms of how we perceive what goes on in the world. And, I have to say, I know people who came to this country, from Armenia, from Europe, from the Caribbean, from Canada, from Africa, and just did not like the lifestyle here. Complaints I heard were we are too commercial, too uniform, lacking in spirituality, lack respect of culture, etc. and ended up going to other places to live. It isn’t for everyone. NO country, society, nation is above constructive criticism. That being said I’m happy that America has made people’s lives better from so many places in the world because of opportunities, advanced economy, people willing to help, etc, and the USA probably have had more satisfied, overall, with the country than dissatisfied. I just don’t think it is this *haven* of freedom that so many are deluding themselves into thinking it is. I think it is a great idea, even for a short time, to visit Europe. I also think we should visit Asia, Canada, and other at least economically advanced areas (as opposed to the less economically advanced areas south of us). While, I don’t agree with some conclusions of yours, I think other Western and other societies show us what we do very well and what we can work on. Many are older and in so many ways much more mature societies than ours. I think we should learn from each other and respect each other. And I think all of humanity needs to work at getting out of clannish thinking and expanding their perspectives. Glad Millennium was a good cruise for you. If you haven’t tried a Century class Celebrity cruise you may want to as they offer a bit more of some things, though less of other things, in Celebrity cruising. Ben S.
Response:
My wife and I just completed the Celebrity Millennium cruise of the Mediterranean. Some obsevations: 1. September is great because there are few children on the ship and the weather is near perfect. 2. The folks in all countries are friendly, although many do not like the Bush military policies. We also do not like Bush’s militarism, so we have common ground with most of the French, Italians, Greeks and Spaniards. 3. The Spanish are a warm engaging people but the Croatians are tops. They actually refuse tips and bargain there prices down. Go figure! 4. Dubrovnik is the great surprise, its immaculate, situated in an area of incredible beauty and beautifully restored. Most found the port their favorite, although I liked VillaFranche and Santorini as much. 5. I skipped the religious side show (we aren’t Catholic) in Rome and concentrated on the ancient ruins. My descretion was rewarded, they were awesome. 6. Athens is great if you like cluster houseing, the best ruins are outside the city. I can’t possibly imagine the 2004 Olympics in this place. 7. The Bush dollar is slipping away, no European will touch our money. 8. The Europeans are far ahead of America in many respects. I found the people stylish, slim, well mannered and most spoke multiple languages. I can only conclude that our expensive educational system is a failure. Every young European, who spoke English, told me they had twelve years of it in school. Can anyone imagine all our spoiled, lazy children studying a foreign language for 12 years? The clerks I encounter in the USA can not make change, fraction or speak proper English, let alone converse in a foreign tongue. 9. European cities are safe except for the Gypsy pick pockets. 10. The only loud, rude, self important people, I encountered on the trip were my countrymen. At the Venice airport, two obese loud mouthed New Yorkers threatened the Italian security guard and demanded they speak English. The two had their passports taken and were searched. 11. Italian security is more through and annoying than American. I showed my passport, to security, 6 times in the Venice airport before being allowed to board. The Med is beautiful in the Fall and the European cities are filled with nice folks and wondeful things to see, I recommend Celebrity cruises, and the Millennium 12 day itinerary. It was my first visit to Europe and I found the experience broadening, encouraging and pointed out that, in many ways, the USA is not always number one. I’d stay in Barcelona for a few days prior, its lively, arty and fun.
Response:
My wife and I just completed the Celebrity Millennium cruise of the Mediterranean. Some obsevations: 1. September is great because there are few children on the ship and the weather is near perfect. 2. The folks in all countries are friendly, although many do not like the Bush military policies. We also do not like Bush’s militarism, so we have common ground with most of the French, Italians, Greeks and Spaniards. 3. The Spanish are a warm engaging people but the Croatians are tops. They actually refuse tips and bargain there prices down. Go figure! 4. Dubrovnik is the great surprise, its immaculate, situated in an area of incredible beauty and beautifully restored. Most found the port their favorite, although I liked VillaFranche and Santorini as much. 5. I skipped the religious side show (we aren’t Catholic) in Rome and concentrated on the ancient ruins. My descretion was rewarded, they were awesome. 6. Athens is great if you like cluster houseing, the best ruins are outside the city. I can’t possibly imagine the 2004 Olympics in this place. 7. The Bush dollar is slipping away, no European will touch our money. 8. The Europeans are far ahead of America in many respects. I found the people stylish, slim, well mannered and most spoke multiple languages. I can only conclude that our expensive educational system is a failure. Every young European, who spoke English, told me they had twelve years of it in school. Can anyone imagine all our spoiled, lazy children studying a foreign language for 12 years? The clerks I encounter in the USA can not make change, fraction or speak proper English, let alone converse in a foreign tongue. 9. European cities are safe except for the Gypsy pick pockets. 10. The only loud, rude, self important people, I encountered on the trip were my countrymen. At the Venice airport, two obese loud mouthed New Yorkers threatened the Italian security guard and demanded they speak English. The two had their passports taken and were searched. 11. Italian security is more through and annoying than American. I showed my passport, to security, 6 times in the Venice airport before being allowed to board. The Med is beautiful in the Fall and the European cities are filled with nice folks and wondeful things to see, I recommend Celebrity cruises, and the Millennium 12 day itinerary. It was my first visit to Europe and I found the experience broadening, encouraging and pointed out that, in many ways, the USA is not always number one. I’d stay in Barcelona for a few days prior, its lively, arty and fun.
Response:
Interesting observations. I also went on a European cruise on Celebrity a few years ago. > My wife and I just completed the Celebrity Millennium cruise of the > Mediterranean. Some obsevations: > 1. September is great because there are few children on the ship and the > weather is near perfect.
I went late August. Also encountered few children and incredible weather. > 2. The folks in all countries are friendly, although many do not like the Bush > military policies. We also do not like Bush’s militarism, so we have common > ground with most of the French, Italians, Greeks and Spaniards.
I’m strongly in agreement with you and have a lot of concern about our militarism as well. Bush, as far as I’m concerned, knows nothing of the real world, and I have little to no respect for him (those that disagree with me and don’t like what I’m saying here, tough. That’s what freedom brings). However… > 3. The Spanish are a warm engaging people but the Croatians are tops. They > actually refuse tips and bargain there prices down. Go figure!
Don’t know about the Spaniards. Do you speak Spanish? I know I didn’t care for many young Italian men’s attitudes about women and disliked the catcalling and other macho behavior I witnessed. I’ve met Croatians living here (born and raised in Croatia, here for a few years). Also have found macho, chavanistic behavior from the younger men and some of the younger women put down American young women and certain ethnicities, so they have their issues as well. > 4. Dubrovnik is the great surprise, its immaculate, situated in an area of > incredible beauty and beautifully restored. Most found the port their > favorite, although I liked VillaFranche and Santorini as much.
Sounds interesting. I enjoyed VilleFranche as well. > 5. I skipped the religious side show (we aren’t Catholic) in Rome and > concentrated on the ancient ruins. My descretion was rewarded, they were > awesome. > 6. Athens is great if you like cluster houseing, the best ruins are outside > the city. I can’t possibly imagine the 2004 Olympics in this place. > 7. The Bush dollar is slipping away, no European will touch our money.
Euro is worth more. For now. Will dollar make comeback? I think so. > 8. The Europeans are far ahead of America in many respects. I found the > people stylish, slim, well mannered and most spoke multiple languages. I can > only conclude that our expensive educational system is a failure. Every young > European, who spoke English, told me they had twelve years of it in school. > Can anyone imagine all our spoiled, lazy children studying a foreign language > for 12 years? The clerks I encounter in the USA can not make change, fraction > or speak proper English, let alone converse in a foreign tongue.
I think it is a shame that Americans tend only to speak English, unless they are from first generation parents that spoke it to them as youngsters or they’ve lived abroad. Speaking one language is so limited. However, I can’t see how you can conclude anything without spending a least months in Europe and seeing the pros and cons of each European country, and various regions within that country. I wouldn’t characterize American children as lazy either, and I think all Western people are spoiled to some degree as we are relatively wealthy compared to the rest of people in the world. Getting back to languages, I think French and Spanish, both, should be spoken in our schools and society. This English only nonsense is just that. Nonsense. There’s nothing wrong with signs in 3 languages and we would be able to speak to most of our neighbors to the south and in French areas in the North and a few French-speaking areas to our south. > 9. European cities are safe except for the Gypsy pick pockets.
Not necessarily. My mother-in-law lives in Belgium and was mugged 3 times in a 2 year period living there. My sister-in-law lives in the same area and was almost abducted into a car. There’s less crime, than the U.S., but there’s crime there. I have plenty friends in Europe, and you have to watch out there. When we went to Lisbon my mother-in-law was almost pickpockted (probably by gypsies). > 10. The only loud, rude, self important people, I encountered on the trip were > my countrymen. At the Venice airport, two obese loud mouthed New Yorkers > threatened the Italian security guard and demanded they speak English. The two > had their passports taken and were searched.
Some New Yorkers are loudmouthed and self important (goes with the ultra competitive urban environment of a city of the status of New York), some aren’t. And there are Americans that exist that think everywhere they go people should speak English. However, there are loudmouths all over the world, obnoxious people all over the world. The U.S. has no monopoly on them. Yes, on your trip you may have encountered American loudmouths, but stay around anywhere and you are bound to have to deal with them sooner or later. > 11. Italian security is more through and annoying than American. I showed my > passport, to security, 6 times in the Venice airport before being allowed to > board. > The Med is beautiful in the Fall and the European cities are filled with nice > folks and wondeful things to see, I recommend Celebrity cruises, and the > Millennium 12 day itinerary. It was my first visit to Europe and I found the > experience broadening, encouraging and pointed out that, in many ways, the USA > is not always number one. I’d stay in Barcelona for a few days prior, its > lively, arty and fun.
My main problem with the United States is this we are number one crap. I’m tired of it. I’m tired of hearing we are so free, and so much the greatest country in the world. Frankly, I’m very glad to live in a country where I’m at least not limited to going out and searching for various types of information, I’m glad to live in a technologically advanced country, in a broad and diverse country. However, we aren’t the only country where one can speak out against their government, we aren’t the only country where people can get at any information we want and to be honest I think we are limited in information that we can get at, we aren’t evenhanded in terms of how we perceive what goes on in the world. And, I have to say, I know people who came to this country, from Armenia, from Europe, from the Caribbean, from Canada, from Africa, and just did not like the lifestyle here. Complaints I heard were we are too commercial, too uniform, lacking in spirituality, lack respect of culture, etc. and ended up going to other places to live. It isn’t for everyone. NO country, society, nation is above constructive criticism. That being said I’m happy that America has made people’s lives better from so many places in the world because of opportunities, advanced economy, people willing to help, etc, and the USA probably have had more satisfied, overall, with the country than dissatisfied. I just don’t think it is this *haven* of freedom that so many are deluding themselves into thinking it is. I think it is a great idea, even for a short time, to visit Europe. I also think we should visit Asia, Canada, and other at least economically advanced areas (as opposed to the less economically advanced areas south of us). While, I don’t agree with some conclusions of yours, I think other Western and other societies show us what we do very well and what we can work on. Many are older and in so many ways much more mature societies than ours. I think we should learn from each other and respect each other. And I think all of humanity needs to work at getting out of clannish thinking and expanding their perspectives. Glad Millennium was a good cruise for you. If you haven’t tried a Century class Celebrity cruise you may want to as they offer a bit more of some things, though less of other things, in Celebrity cruising. Ben S.
Response:
>8. The Europeans are far ahead of America in many respects. I found the >people stylish, slim, well mannered and most spoke multiple languages. I can >only conclude that our expensive educational system is a failure.
No argument there. > Every young >European, who spoke English, told me they had twelve years of it in school. >Can anyone imagine all our spoiled, lazy children studying a foreign language >for 12 years?
Well, really, you were in tourist areas. Believe me, there are lots of Europeans who can’t speak English. I think the reason so few Americans speak a foreign language is simply that they don’t need to, and to a lesser degree that they don’t have common opportunities for immersion in another language — about the only exception is Spanish for people living in Miami, California, and Texas border towns — and a lot of them do, in fact, speak some Spanish. I actually think, if you took 100 random people off the streets of Oslo, and 100 random people off the streets of New York, the Norwegians would do better on an English test >10. The only loud, rude, self important people, I encountered on the trip were >my countrymen. At the Venice airport, two obese loud mouthed New Yorkers >threatened the Italian security guard and demanded they speak English. The two >had their passports taken and were searched.
Not to excuse rude American tourists, but you are showing a bit of provencialism (reverse provencialism?) here. The most dreaded tourists in Europe, according to a recent poll, are the British, followed by the Germans. Americans are third. I really don’t think I’ve found a greater proportion of nice vs. rude people in any culture. Not that there aren’t a lot of differences, and sometimes cultural differences are perceived as rudeness. Mason Barge "If this is coffee, please bring me some tea. If this is tea, please bring me some coffee." — Abraham Lincoln
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Here’s a link to the poll, by the way. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3185291.stm Americans actually came out better than I had thought. Germans were first and worst at 23%, British at 22%, and more or less a three way tie between Americans, French and Italians. Mason Barge "If this is coffee, please bring me some tea. If this is tea, please bring me some coffee." — Abraham Lincoln
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>Americans actually came out better than I had thought. Germans were >first and worst at 23%, British at 22%, and more or less a three way >tie between Americans, French and Italians.
Ther eason for this is the attitude to tipping. The Euros don’t like to tip. Our waiters complained endlessly about the poor tips in Europe. Americans like to tip, I know we tip well as do many other Americans. This is definitely a point in our favor, but the rudness of the US urban boor is incredible.
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> My wife and I just completed the Celebrity Millennium cruise of the > Mediterranean. Some obsevations: > 1. September is great because there are few children on the ship and the > weather is near perfect.
I found around the Med May and September are the best months for weather. > 2. The folks in all countries are friendly, although many do not like the Bush > military policies. We also do not like Bush’s militarism, so we have common > ground with most of the French, Italians, Greeks and Spaniards.
You want scintilating conversation, talk about their countries politics… Bring up the European Union, there were huge protests in Rome when we were there last summer over a scandal about the Italian leader bribing the judiciary not to indict him during his upcoming tenure as head of the EU. > 3. The Spanish are a warm engaging people but the Croatians are tops. They > actually refuse tips and bargain there prices down. Go figure!
Twelve hours per port and you were able to characterize entire populations. Good job. > 4. Dubrovnik is the great surprise, its immaculate, situated in an area of > incredible beauty and beautifully restored. Most found the port their > favorite, although I liked VillaFranche and Santorini as much. > 5. I skipped the religious side show (we aren’t Catholic) in Rome and > concentrated on the ancient ruins. My descretion was rewarded, they were > awesome.
If you skipped the entire religious side show you skipped many important ancient ruins, the forum, the Colosseum, circus maximus to name a few. Perhaps you are only skipping the Vatican? Or did you miss the how religion was interwoven into the culture of ancient Rome? > 6. Athens is great if you like cluster houseing, the best ruins are outside > the city. I can’t possibly imagine the 2004 Olympics in this place.
It depends on your definition of "best". Ephesus and Olympia are wonderful. But for sheer majesty, you really need to see the Acropolis at least once. > 7. The Bush dollar is slipping away, no European will touch our money. > 8. The Europeans are far ahead of America in many respects. I found the > people stylish, slim, well mannered and most spoke multiple languages. I can > only conclude that our expensive educational system is a failure. Every young > European, who spoke English, told me they had twelve years of it in school. > Can anyone imagine all our spoiled, lazy children studying a foreign language > for 12 years? The clerks I encounter in the USA can not make change, fraction > or speak proper English, let alone converse in a foreign tongue.
Exactly where do you live? In San Francisco it is not rare to find hotel and shop clerks that speak many different languages. There are people working in each land of Disneyland that can handle most common languages of the world, to help guests that say, speak only Japanese or Chinese. You were on a ship, visiting ports that guarenteed the local shops close to 2000 tourists any day they anchored. Visit any tourist destination anywhere, including the US, and you will find people that can speak many different languages. Now, if you were to wander off the beaten path, I guarantee you everyone doesn’t speak English, and many can make change about as well as the local high school kids at your Seven Eleven. I’ve taken a bike trip through the back roads of France (Along the Lot and Dordogne rivers.) There were many small shops where my high school French was better than their high school English. My tourist Italian (from tapes) got me through many small towns in Tuscany, near Lake Garda, and outside Sorrento when we were staying in villas. I love hitting the Super Mercatos, but you can’t expect them to speak English. > 9. European cities are safe except for the Gypsy pick pockets. > 10. The only loud, rude, self important people, I encountered on the trip were > my countrymen. At the Venice airport, two obese loud mouthed New Yorkers > threatened the Italian security guard and demanded they speak English. The two > had their passports taken and were searched.
I got to spend a few weeks in Nice on business. I was staying in a small business hotel, that also catered to German tourists. The desk clerks there always sighed big when the German tourists showed up. They much preferred the American business folks. Once in Paris my then fiance and I were at a fancy starred French restaurant, attempting to translate the menu with our book hidden under the table. Though we were speaking to the waiter in French, he came over, and in perfect English, offered us English menus. At the next table over were 10 Japanese tourists. When the same waiter wandered over to them the head Japanese tourist turns to the waiter and says very loudly, in English "We are obviously Japanese, therefore we don’t speak French!" The waiter chose not to understand his English, and served them the entire dinner only responding to finger pointing. There are nice tourists, and bores, from every country, ours included. > 11. Italian security is more through and annoying than American. I showed my > passport, to security, 6 times in the Venice airport before being allowed to > board.
This is much like assuming all American Airport have the same security. The security at the airport in Rome earlier this summer was less thourough than the security in SF. Go figure. > The Med is beautiful in the Fall and the European cities are filled with nice > folks and wondeful things to see, I recommend Celebrity cruises, and the > Millennium 12 day itinerary. It was my first visit to Europe and I found the > experience broadening, encouraging and pointed out that, in many ways, the USA > is not always number one.
For this reason alone, I’ve been taking my children to Europe the last few summers. I can’t believe anyone would ever believe the USA is always number one. >I’d stay in Barcelona for a few days prior, its > lively, arty and fun.
Barcelona is indeed a lovely city. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
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> My wife and I just completed the Celebrity Millennium cruise of the > Mediterranean. Some obsevations:
Thank you, Cathy, for putting it much more diplomatically than I would have. I found it a bit unpatriotic, political, and an inkling of bashing of american people, children and religion. If one is so dissatisfied with our country and americans in general, one is not forced to stay here. There are many more trying to get into our country legally and illegally than trying to leave. I’m proud to be an American and despite its faults, as far as I am concerned, my country is #1 and will always be to me. –Jean
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>Twelve hours per port and you were able to characterize entire populations. >Good job.
Those are my impressions, your put down makes no sense since I don’t claim any extensive experience in Europe. My wife has lived in Europe and traveled there numerous times and holds the same impression. >If you skipped the entire religious side show you skipped many important >ancient ruins, the forum, the Colosseum, circus maximus to name a few.
Of course, we both know what I’m referring to above. The heavy Catholism of Vatican City is not my thing. If you want to reveal in billions of dollars in religious art treasures and other symbols of the dark ages-go for it. Personally, I prefer the Pagans, they had more fun and were the ones who started Western civilization. (Don’t bother to edify me about the Rennaissance) Exactly where do you live? In San Francisco it is not rare to find hotel >and shop >clerks that speak many different languages.
International tests consistently demonstrate the low acheivement levels of US educated students. The Chamber of Commerce complains that US high school graduates are enumerate and functionally illiterate. Is San Fransisco typical of the US? Of course not. I think our attitude of "USA number one" ignores our limitations. One final point-I’m a Vietnam vet who was spit on by numerous Americans, no European ever spit on me. Given my experience, I’m very skeptical of the "superior American character" but then you wouldn’t have had my experience.
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Hear, here Cathy different S’nd I
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))The Bush dollar is slipping away, ))no European will touch our money. Thanks for my morning chuckle If it were only true
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> Of course, we both know what I’m referring to above. The heavy Catholism of > Vatican City is not my thing. If you want to reveal in billions of dollars in > religious art treasures and other symbols of the dark ages-go for it. > Personally, I prefer the Pagans, they had more fun and were the ones who > started Western civilization. (Don’t bother to edify me about the Rennaissance)
I’m not Catholic, but found the Vatican museum and the Basilica fascinating from "artistic" and "architectural" standpoints. One can see things like the transformation of artists like Rafael from boring "color" artists into vibrant "chiaroscuro" artists, after the discovery of chiaroscuro by Caravaggio. To miss a sculpture by Michelangelo, considered one of the top 3 geniuses in the history of the world, because you don’t like Catholicism is to me a shame. Same with the Basilica, which was designed by Michelangelo. You can view many things from a historic perspective, if you don’t want to look at the religious perspective. That’s what I often do. Too bad you let your feelings about Catholicism get in the way. There are some truly beautiful things there to see and appreciate. –Tom
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> I’m not Catholic, but found the Vatican museum and the Basilica > fascinating from "artistic" and "architectural" standpoints.
Same here, not Catholic but I would not skip them on a visit to Rome for the same reasons. By the way this "frog" poster is the one who trolled the group about the supposed "Bizzare incident on Galaxy" as Jim (cruiserfrog) who was the object of the incident, and responded as KathyDfrog that he witnessed the incident!!! Their "Back from the Med" post is pretty troll like too. — Charles
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Thanx. End of replies to this thread. –Tom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m not Catholic, but found the Vatican museum and the Basilica > fascinating from "artistic" and "architectural" standpoints. > Same here, not Catholic but I would not skip them on a visit to Rome > for the same reasons. > By the way this "frog" poster is the one who trolled the group about > the supposed "Bizzare incident on Galaxy" as Jim (cruiserfrog) who was > the object of the incident, and responded as KathyDfrog that he > witnessed the incident!!! Their "Back from the Med" post is pretty > troll like too. > — > Charles
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >(phone ringing) Hello, Vatican City how may I direct your call? >Hey Father I need to talk to the big guy. >Bob is that you? >How are they hanging? >Just fine could you get me the big guy we got trouble here in River County. >No problem he will be right on. >Yes my son how can I help you? >Hey dude what’s up? >Listen I think I might need a squad of your best nuns this weekend? >What for my son? >Well you remember when we had to exorcise that demon a few years back? Yes, >that child was vomiting every where. >Well I think we got a VooDoo problem this time and I want to make sure my >birds are protected. >No problem my son I will send Father…. >Wait, Holy One I need nuns, you do not want to send me cute young Fathers, >these guys are dangerous. Just send me the nun squad please we don’t need >any difficulties with the young Fathers being,,,,well dragged out of >What are these evil ones called my son? >Marco and Chucky Holy One. I ain’t sure they are in on this but we do need >to be careful, right? >I will send the nuns my son. >Hey thanks Dad, how is Mom doing? >My son I told you never to talk about her, we do not want the liberal press >getting wind of that situation, take care and Thou Art Blessed.